dennis [07.11.05 07:28 PM]

Your commnent, "suffering through Macromedia's foul animation-oriented programming environment" is really not necessary. You may think the IDE is lacking for your purposes, however, you cannot deny that the company has done an incredible job of developing Flash into a robust RIA development and delivery vehicle (no matter what IDE you use) and are now being even more progressive in allowing it to go open source. It just makes you sound arrogant and snobby and does a diservice to what you are trying to promote. Considering the versatility of the Flash IDE, it is actually quite remarkable as a piece of software. Can you build something as good as that??

Shawn [07.13.05 08:50 AM]

Dennis: honestly not trying to start a flamewar, but Flash as a development application hurts. A lot. It does offer a lot of versitility, but at the cost of memory usage, severe degradation of usability as the years go by, and more bugs than any other development software I've used.

That said, I wouldn't use Laszlo, either. Flash runs slowly enough without having to re-create the browser inside of it using a whole new markup language. I've tried it and its memory usage and loading time grows exponentially with complexity, rendering it pretty much useless for my purposes.

Nah, I think from now on when I start new Flash projects I'll give Motion-Twin's ActionScript compiler a shot.

Tim O'Reilly [07.13.05 09:05 AM]

I'm with Dennis. Even if Nat doesn't like Flash (and I don't think he has enough experience with it to have that strong an opinion), name calling isn't useful (and I roasted Nat in email for it!) Personally, I find Flash fascinating. It's not for everyone, but for those who need it, it provides unique and powerful functionality. There seems to be a religious objection among some open source advocates, which is why Laszlo seems to have its following, but frankly, the "let us copy some proprietary program in order to make it open" school of free software leaves me cold. The best free software programs pioneer new functionality, and are intrinsically tied to open architectures and protocols.

Shawn [07.13.05 09:25 AM]

"name calling isn't useful" - no argument there.

From my understanding of Laszo doesn't copy Flash, but takes in markup and inserts widgets and functionality into a Flash movie. You can create similar output as far as the interface goes with Laszlo, but through a drastically different development process.

I sort of agree with the point about the best free software programs pioneering new functionality, but I think projects like the Motion-Twin ActionScript compiler and Apache's (Incubated) Harmony can add a lot in terms of performance, bug fixes and a new understanding of the language in question, but they do need to start with the base functionality.

Tim O'Reilly [07.13.05 10:22 AM]

Shawn --

Absolutely -- I have no problem with "embrace and extend" :-) when someone is adding functionality to a proprietary platform, and making that functionality open source. What turns me off is the idea of "liberating" someone else's program.

GNU/Linux is a special case, because UNIX was originally a community project, even if the licensing allowed AT&T to shut down the sharing after the fact. A lot of people had a stake in it, and their "historical easement" (to use a concept from real property law) was being taken away.

I'm a firm believer in the value of open source as a development and distribution methodology, and I want companies to adopt it because it works for them. (And it doesn't always work. A lot depends on your market and what you want to achieve.)

gnat [07.13.05 10:55 AM]

I think "foul" didn't communicate my precise frustration. Please don't lump me with Marc Canter and all the others who think Macromedia is ipso facto evil. My criticism is purely one of the development interface.

I've tried three times in the last two years to get into Flash programming: I have a stack of Rich Internet Apps I want to build and I lack the ulcer medication to deal with in-browser Javascript for any length of time. Macromedia's Flash development environment is aimed at animators. The timeline is not an intuitive concept for programmers who want to build applications. It might make sense for designers and those with a lot of time to ease into Flash development, but it just didn't fit into my brain. I am eagerly looking forward to the Eclipse plugin for Flash: I hope it will be a better fit with my programmer brain.

So my comment has nothing to do with whether Flash is open source or not (kudos to Macromedia for continuing to open it, by the way). I use and love my Mac, for crying out loud, and Apple are fiercely proprietary. All I care about is a system that's more like every other application development environment. Laszlo has declarative screens with scripts behind them and clearly defined transitions, something I can handle. Each screen is a file, not a point on a time line. This I could handle.

Shawn [07.13.05 11:29 AM]

Tim:

I definitely agree on the note about "liberating" someone else's work. While it starts getting into the realm of horrible copyright law discussions, the decision to open or close the source of an app definitely sits with the creator (or the owner of the rights to the source code, depending). I will say that OpenOffice has saved me at times, but I own a purchased copy of Microsoft Office as well and primarily use that. Not because I like supporting Microsoft, but because directly porting an application without the support of the initial publisher (especially a suite) tends to lag behind in new features and (GENERALLY speaking) lacks that "polished" feel because they need to race to keep up.

While I do try to support more open source projects, it all really comes down to quality for me. I purchase closed, commercial software when it offers the best solution, and I use and donate to open source projects when they offer something better. As a freelance developer, I certainly won't condemn anyone just because they sell their software rather than give it away! I have bills to pay so I do it, too.

Nat:

"The timeline is not an intuitive concept for programmers who want to build applications." - agreed! I ignore it completely. Most of the applications I build in Flash get created almost entirely in ActionScript, only using the GUI to make parts of the UI to import using the script. Next time you try Flash (if it happens again), go under the Window menu and pick the Developer window layout for your resolution. It won't look perfect, but it will help a lot.

I've developed Flash movies and webapps for five years now (and probably won't stop anytime soon), but I don't like the interface at all. However after giving Laszlo a shot I probably won't switch. It all comes does to a Vi/Emacs argument in the end, I suppose.